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Panel Discussion for Youth in Milwaukee - Part: 2

“I to We”: Questions and Answers

March 15, 2009

Moderator: I would like to welcome Professor Anil Kumar to the dais. Please hand over the index cards with your questions to the volunteers who are on both the sides of the hall. Thank you.

Anil Kumar: Sai Ram everybody! How are you? You are bound to be good.

Today, I stand as a person enjoying the highest state of bliss, whether you believe me or not. I have been dreaming for years that youngsters will rise to the occasion. I have been planning to train youngsters to take the platform. A young man speaking to the younger generation means much more than an old man talking to the young. I am very happy. Congratulations to all of you! You have done a good job, I tell you. You are all the same age as my children. I am very, very, very happy.

About highlights: A young man, Mr Bhushan, started this discussion. He said there is youth in us. They are youth, we are youthful. That is the difference. My friends let me ask you, have you ever seen a picture of Krishna depicting Him as old in age? Have you seen Rama’s picture showing Him in His old age? No, we always see a young Krishna, a young Rama. Do you mean to say they never aged? They must have. The answer is they represent youth, if not the physical form or the physical frame. That energy, that dynamism, that leadership—these constitute youth. That is what Rama and Krishna happen to be; they represent youth, not old age.

We come across some people with long Shakespearean faces, who are not even twenty-five years of age. They have a worthless life; they can’t even smile, they can’t even stand erect. Forget about it. We have the best youth in the Sai organisation, like this group on the dais. I am so happy about this.

I am also happy to bring to your attention the first speaker of the day, Grace Wahaab. Wow! Wonderful! You did a very good job, because you openly admitted that it is not so easy to follow Swami’s teachings. Those who speak of his teachings never follow them. I am so happy with your frankness. I am also appreciative that you laid much emphasis on the self-confidence that you required. It is self-confidence that makes everyone decide to follow the teachings someday; if not now, at least later.

Furthermore, I was also thrilled when Grace said, “I know that Swami knows, Swami inside me knows.” Well! What more spiritual statement could there be than this? God bless you, Grace! You gave a very good statement, a very good statement indeed. You also said you tried to be a perfect devotee rather than be one of the many who declare themselves perfect devotees, although they are not. I am so happy that we try to be. We are all pilgrims marching towards the same goal, the same objective.

I was overjoyed when you said in your talk that, “Practice is more important than preaching,” and that you look forward in the spiritual direction by following Swami’s values; this is the point. “I do not know how to lead the normal life of my age.” Am I right? Is this what you said? “The normal life of my age.”

We find some people saying, “After all, what is this life? After all, what is this food? What is this?” First, what are you? To be natural is to be religious; to be natural is religion. Religion is not artificial; religion is not a show. Religion is to be natural -- a very good statement, a very good statement indeed. Lastly you said that you want to serve and inspire other youth in the Sai Organisation. God bless you, Grace, very good, well done!

I was also very excited to listen to the next speaker, Akhilan, who spoke on the spiritual aspects. Wonderful statements! The art of Self-discovery: we are good at the art of discovering others, but not at discovering our own Self. I can very well discover your mistakes, but not my own. This kind of self discovery is going on! A good punch word!

And the next point you made was a good statement: “This is not a chance given to you; you are not just here, you were chosen to be here.” We were all chosen to be here, please understand. Please just believe that statement. We are the chosen instruments in the hands of the Divine. Very good.

You told the story of the tiger, very interesting. This is exactly what Swami said in one of His discourses. But being a tiger, many of us would prefer to be a lamb or a sheep. That is most unfortunate. At least the cub was much better in that it knew that it was a cub, not a lamb. We are quite comfortable being lambs and sheep. That is most unfortunate.

May I add one more statement here, Akhilan? The other tiger reminded the cub, “You are not a sheep, you are not a lamb; you belong to our tribe, the tiger tribe.” The bigger tiger, the mother tiger, is the guru or preceptor. She tells him, “Yes, you belong to That.” Soham, who are you? Soham, I am That. Thath twam asi. I am That. That is what is called the command or the teaching of the preceptor. Very well said, Akhilan. You also have a wonderful smile on your face.

Finally, at your age, you said that it is very good to say, “Swami is the centre of our lives. He is the centre of all our lives.” That should be the faith that one has. This is a very good statement indeed. And Akhilan didn’t leave it at that stage; he went on to say, “Self-improvement, that is absolutely necessary.”

We have so many programs and so many plans to improve everything around us, including cleaning our house; but how about yourself? He clarified it well by saying, “We must develop the feeling that I am not the body, I am not the mind, I am not the intellect; I am the Self.” That is what he meant by self-improvement. Then he said, “We are one. Samastha Loka Sukhino Bhavanthu.”

Earlier, Bhagavan used to say Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu. Today, we chant, Samastha Loka Sukhino Bhavanthu. Many have put this question to me, “Anil Kumar, why Samastha today and Loka then? What is the difference between the two?” The Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu refers to what you see—Earth, the planets; but Samastha Loka means the entire universe. So, Loka Samastha means the world, while Samastha Loka means the universe, the galaxy, the moon, and the solar system. Very good: “We are one.”

You also suggested that one has to go through the Divine sport, what we call leela, and that one has to go through the Divine teachings, seeking guidance. Very good indeed. And the example you gave of the video interview is really thought-provoking. Yes, and transformation is expected. Very good. And “watch”: all these years, people have usually been giving a different sort of a meaning that we know pretty well; but here Akhilan made the statement, “Watch the Self, watch the Self in you, and the same Self in everybody, the sakshi, the eternal witness.” A good point indeed.

What else did you say? Because we are living in the world, what do we get? I attend a meeting. What do I get? I go to the mall and everything is for sale. What do I get? Because we are pukka in business, we also turn religion into a business transaction. Yes, some people say, “If my son gets a visa, I will offer my hair to Lord Venkateswara.”

Why should you lose your hair if your son goes to America? I don’t understand this. God, who can grow hair on your head, can surely have enough hair of His own if He wants? It is because of business. We make everything business. But Akhilan made a very good statement: In the bargain, in the deal, what is it that is kept waiting? Ananda or bliss. That is a very good observation indeed.

Why am I summarising all this? So you will put questions to these youngsters. I want these youngsters to answer questions. I want the youngsters in the audience to respond, and then later come to the retired gang of my age group. Because it is high time that we kept quiet and made you speak. Fortunately I realised this, by His Grace, when you people asked me to sit down. Good. Akhilan also thanked his parents and grandparents. Very good. In fact, it is all their blessings that brought him here. Good.

The third speaker, Siddesh, spoke on social aspects. A typical Sai student indeed as he began with the story of the fingers. Very good. What he said was very nice. As for the little finger, Bhagavan says, “When you do namaskar, the little finger comes first.”

He said another thing, this one about the index finger: “If you want to warn everybody, you say ‘Take care.’” Further He said, “If you want to show, ‘Where is the Hindu temple? It is that way. Where is the church? This way.’” So this is important.

And the ring finger says, “I have the ring.” The other fingers say, “We too can have a ring if we pay for it.” That’s what He said. Good.

I also appreciate your saying that we have no time to thank God. It is very, very unfortunate. We should count His blessings. We should never test Divine providence. Count His blessings. We have so many things to enjoy. We thank God for the beautiful gift of life.

Is there anything worth more than one’s own life? This life is the gift of God. One has to be grateful. We should find the time to be so. I do not want to elaborate further. And then you said, “Ten, eleven, twenty,” that’s also what Swami says. This from a youth from Hyderabad, the capital of Andhra Pradesh! Very good, well done! God bless you, Siddesh.

When I was here a couple of years ago, I saw a very young girl. I never thought that she would come here, grown up over the years and make the best of the presentations ever! Miss Yamini—wow! Well done, Yamini. Good, good. All the slides that you brought, all the matters that they contained and covered speak of your sincerity. And the depth that you have gone into, citing examples from your own life situation as a teacher, bringing case studies for our observations, is really thrilling and exciting. God bless you. You have done a very, very good job. Yes indeed.

And Yamini said, “Youth are going to protect the world and they have to set things straight.” This is very good. They have immense power. I admit this because I was also young at one time, but it was all perverted in those days. You are very lucky, you are very lucky to have been born into Sai families! You have been very lucky to be exposed to Sai Youth programs. You have been extremely fortunate to be in the Sai-fold and to have been members of Sai Youth. And the snapshots are quite interesting. We are used to shots of the pistol, but we are also happy to see the snapshots. And you said that there’s confusion, tension, recklessness, frustration, and expectation. It is good the list ended there because there are many more things that might be added.

We have to accept that today’s little kids are very intelligent. You know, we have to accept this hard fact. It is very difficult to reconcile. It seems a father was telling nice things to his son: “Sonny, look here, study well. You know Washington stood first in every class, in every subject. He stood first you know. You should read well. At your age, George Washington, President of America was very great; he stood first in the class.”

The little boy (he was of our computer age, you know) said, “Daddy, no doubt Washington stood first at my age. But at your age, he became President of America.” (Laughter)

Specialisation and super-specialisation have been taken too far. It seems a gentleman with some dental problems went to a dentist and the dentist asked, “Where is the problem?”

“Oh dentist, I have a problem in the lower jaw,” he said, and the dentist told him, “I am an expert in the upper jaw; please consult the next dentist.”

Then he went to the next dentist and said, “Okay, there is a problem in the front teeth of my lower jaw.”

“No, I am expert on the next tooth, not the front tooth.”

Super-specialisation has gone so far that we are not able to deal with daily practical problems. And this kind of youth organisation, this sort of youth seminar, where we discuss a kind of integrated approach, an integral approach, will produce results that will be more practical in our lives.

And then I am also happy that you obtain ample opportunities from the Sai Organisation for service activities. It is very, very important that you get leadership opportunities. For your information, I tell you now that the responsibilities given to youngsters in Prashanti Nilayam itself are the role model.

It is necessary to entrust responsibilities to youngsters and see what they can do. My experiences this evening were the same as in Prashanti Nilayam, my friends. Believe me or not, Bhagavan is the witness.

I taught the “Awareness” course to second-year postgraduate students there in Prashanti Nilayam for a number of years. What we do in “Awareness” is that a teacher makes a presentation, and in the next class the students make a presentation, and the next class is a kind of discussion. Finally we make a kind of summary. That is the procedure we follow.

That morning I was supposed to make a presentation. I was surprised when the mathematics students, MTech boys, came and said, “Sir, today is our chance.” I said “Why not? Please do it!” They did exceedingly well, exceedingly well! Tremendous, I tell you. And in the evening some program was going on in the Mandir; it was the mandolin.

Srinivas was giving a music concert on the dais and Swami called me and said, “What happened there at the college this morning?”

“Swami, it was in fact my turn to speak, but boys said that they would do it.”

“Hmm. Evi annukunnavu nuvvu?” (What are your feelings?)

“I openly confess Swami, the boys did much better than what I would have done. They did much better than I would have done.”

They were students of computer science, the computer and composer, computer applications, and spiritual life. What a wonderful presentation it was. So, given the chance, youngsters will certainly do a very good job.

And coming back once again to Yamini, she mentioned the inclusive environment. Yes, the environment is never secluded. The environment is not isolated. The environment is neither fragmented nor segmented. It is whole and complete and that is what you meant by inclusive environment, if I am right.

You also said that we should welcome change. If we are not prepared to welcome change, we will be forced to accept change, because from time-to-time one has to change. Brazilian hypothesis was replaced by Avogadro’s hypothesis as per my chemistry knowledge, which dates from the year 1958. Some other theories must have been added by now. Darwinism, neo-Darwinism, Marxism, neo-Marxism... Science and technology are no more; we have nano-science and nano-technology. Similarly, we have to make our presentations using the latest technology so I am so happy that you made use of PowerPoint so well, giving a modern touch to your presentation. Thank you very, very much.

And then they raised the concept of transition, which is very important—the transition from physical Swami to inner Swami. Yamini, it is too big an idea for you to think of! Even elders have not come to that state. Elders have not come to that state because they go by the sense of publicity: “I got an interview.” “I got padnamaskar.” “He took my letter.” “He took my rose flower.” As if He has taken human form only for your sake! (Laughter) This is publicity, propaganda, vainglory, self-praise, and self-aggrandisement; it is not at all spiritual. It is a ritual. It is very nice of you to have thought of the transition from physical Swami to inner Swami.

It was Ramana Maharshi who said, “Because of your devotion, God comes in a human form, in the form of a guru or preceptor, only to tell you, ‘O my dear son, see Me in you. See Me in you.’” That is what is meant by the Kingdom of Heaven. It is within you. Srunvanthu Viswe Amrutasya Puthrah. Find that kind of Divinity within. So you have raised a very, very, good point.

I have summarised these points so that you may put some questions. First of all, the answers will come from the panel. They will try to answer, and then youngsters will try to answer, and finally we, the back-seaters, take a turn. I hope I have not taken too much time Mr Bhushan, our time-keeper! I beg your pardon if I have exceeded my time. We are bell-teachers you know; until the bell goes, we go on speaking. (Laughter) (Applause)

Moderator: Thank you, Professor Anil Kumar. Let’s give him a big hand. (Applause) There is only one type of charge in us. It is all positive charge right now. Thank you very much for moving us there. With the compliance of the proceedings, we are going to invite questions from the audience.

Ten seconds’ introduction, here is my brother Kanth. He will be silently working. He will be the time-keeper of this particular session. I am going to request Kanth to read the questions as received from the audience. Thank you.

We have received six to seven questions, so depending on time, we will go through them. I put this one first because it is from somebody new to the Sai organisation, or someone who has just come here. This member asked some of our Sai devotees to tell him, “When will Swami call? Will Swami call when the time is ready?” This person did not get the call. Does that mean He neglected him? What should he do?

Panel Member 1: Sai Ram, very good question. Could I just repeat that question so we clearly understand, “Is it the time to come to Swami?” Am I right?

Moderator: I have been waiting a long time to be in a Sai group. People tell me that Sai Himself will call when the time is right. But He has not done that up till now. Has He forgotten me? Or does He not want me to join?

Panel Member 1: Sai has not forgotten anybody. It is we who are not clear. Like I said in the talk earlier, we all have been chosen, brothers and sisters. So it is our selfishness to think that Swami has not called me. When will He call me?

Panel Member 2: It is a very good question. Based on my experience and based on what I have heard from devotees, I would say that it is wrong to say that Swami would forget us. I think it is always the other way round. In my spiritual journey, it is always I who has been found wanting, not Swami. He is always two or three steps ahead of me. While I am still figuring it out, when I am thinking, “Is this the right way?” He is already there and He has already done that for me. He sees far ahead.

Coming to the question that you ask, “When the right time comes, will you be called?” we say that there is a sense of surrender in it. If you just make a statement, there is a sense of surrender in it. God knows when it is the right time for you to be there, when it will be more appropriate, and when you need Him the most.

It is like a doctor who does not have one standard medicine for all. He prescribes based on the patient. He does not prescribe the same medicine for all. I have also known of many experiences that devotees have had in the past, people who have come to Prashanti Nilayam for the first time, and Swami asked, “How are you doing?” He has then narrated each scene and each situation of their lives, as He has been standing by them. So that, you know, really takes them aback: “Oh my God, Swami was there all the time and I didn’t know, and I doubted Him!” They say this afterwards.

I think there should be no room for doubt. There is certainty when the time comes: when He thinks it is appropriate, when you surrender to Him, when you leave everything to Him. I think there is absolutely no doubt that He is there standing beside you twenty-four/seven, always guiding and protecting you. Because if you believe in Him, know that whatever is happening to you is His will. There is no doubt about that.

Anil Kumar: Akhilan wants to add something, with your permission.

Panel Member 1: I just wanted to say that we are searching for physical contact. Swami is already within you. Be connected. That’s all, Sai Ram.

Panel Member 3: That is a very good question. I guess the quote that came to my mind was, “If you take one step towards Me, I will take a thousand steps towards you.” I fully believe that is true and that timing is everything. I can relate this to the story I shared today. When you are really open to Swami and you really turn to Swami, I feel that He is there for you. It is all about the timing: when we are ready, Swami is ready for us.

Panel Member 4: I think these guys have done a great job answering this question. I just wanted to add that it seems that if you are here today and you are asking this question, then that time has come for you. So I would just say to be here and enjoy that blessing, and I am sure as you continue on, the timing will become clear, and with hindsight you will understand what the way was about.

Anil Kumar: Any youngsters from the audience?

Audience: Sai Ram everyone! I keep hearing this question, and very recently when I heard this from someone, I was reading some of Swami’s literature. There I found an answer for this. One of the devotees asked Swami (I believe this was in Prashanti Nilayam), “Swami, I have been waiting here for such a long time, and I am still waiting for Your darshan and interview.”

Swami said, “My dear Bangaru, do you know that I have been waiting for you for several years.”

So while you are waiting for Swami’s call, Swami has actually already arrived in your life and Swami has been waiting for all of us for several years. That is something that we need to understand and digest. Sai Ram.

Anil Kumar: Your good name?

Audience: My name is Nagaraj.

Anil Kumar: Good, very good, well done. (Applause)

Audience: Sai Ram, my name is Nidhi. I think in general people are looking for physical attachment. I have heard about this scenario many times as far as people who have gone to Parthi and said, “Why hasn’t Swami given me the interview? Why has Swami not called me? Why has Swami not given me vibbhuti? Why hasn’t He taken my letter?”

It means that He is still trying to teach you something, and until that realisation sinks in, I don’t think He will make any physical connection with you. You have to look within and correct yourself before He shows you that physical aspect. Many times that is what you are focusing on. You don’t take the time to concentrate on what is within. What is it Swami is still trying to correct that is wrong within you before He takes your letter? Then your ego kicks in and says, “Oh Swami took my letter, so I must be doing everything correctly and perfectly.” So that is one of the things that I thought of.

Anil Kumar: Good, good. This is what is called self-introspection or self-evaluation. Instead of saying, “Why didn’t I get the chance?” we say, “What is wrong with me?” That is good. I appreciate your answer.

Moderator: When we were discussing this, one of the audience here asked “Who is Sai?” We should probably answer that question.

Panel Member 1: Sai is Bhagavan to the whole universe; in a nutshell, the whole yearning comes from within. Swami is in you. We get caught up in the world so we forget who we really are, like that cub mixing with the lambs. Once Swami has lit a lamp in our hearts, He will reveal Himself in you. That is Swami, Sai.

Anil Kumar: Good you could connect it with your talk. Well done, Swami is in you—that is Bhagavan. Let us see how Siddesh sees this question.

Panel Member 2: Whoever asked this question, “Who is Sai?” I would say that he or she has to look within. He is within you; you will find Him there. He is that selfless, pure love. I wouldn’t be doing any justice describing what He is because words fail.

This reminds me of one occasion. Swami was sitting around with a couple of students and He was asking, “Who is Sai Baba? Who am I?”

Some said, “Swami, You are God.”

Some said, “Swami, You are the very embodiment of Lord Shiva and Parvathi in one form, the whole universe coming together in one form.”

Some repeated, “Swami, You are God.”

There were many people who kept saying that, but Swami said, “I am not that. No! No!”

When everyone was tired and gave up, this is what Swami said: “I am I.”

He said that saying, “I am that…” or “I am this…” is basically saying “I am different from something else.” In calling yourself this body or this form, you are basically saying that another form is different and you are here. That is why saying, “I am this thing” is wrong, for He IS you. I don’t have anything more to say more about Swami.

Anil Kumar: Good, good.

Panel Member 3: Sai Baba is the universal, omnipresent form of God in physical form now, but always living in our hearts, always with us; not matter in physical form, which years from now He no longer will be. Actually I also think about the first bhajan I ever sang, “I am God, I am God, I am no different from God.” (Applause)

So Sai Baba is bringing us the awareness that we are God, we are no different from Him. He is teaching us how to better ourselves and be the best we can be while we are in this life.

Anil Kumar: Good. Well done. Very nice.

Panel Member 4: I agree with Siddesh, I don’t think Sai is something you can put into words. But if I had to try, I would say that Sai is exactly what you need Sai to be at any moment. This is what I have noticed in my experience. To me, Swami is not something that stays the same all the time. So the only thing that is constant is that He is there.

I remember in college having conversations with friends of mine. They came from different backgrounds, different faith backgrounds, and they would say, “How do you know that Sai Baba exists?” Or, “How do you know that God exists?”

My thought was that it doesn’t matter if God exists or not, because God exists to me, and my belief in that God makes me try to be a better person. So that is what I would say. For Sai is that Sai, whatever you need Sai to be, in order to become a better version of yourself.

Anil Kumar: Akhilan has another point to make.

Panel Member 1: Very good point made by Yamini. We always think Swami is nowhere. If you look at that word nowhere, and spell it, it reads N-O-W, H-E-R-E. So Swami is “now here”!

Anil Kumar: Anybody? Youngsters, youth, yes, please get up.

Audience: Sai Ram, my name is Jyothi. I moved here from India several years ago and as a Bal Vikas student in India when I was thirteen, this is what I learnt from my Bal Vikas teacher. Sai stands for Sa, ‘good or great’ and Aa, in Marathi, means ‘mother’. So Sai is our great Mother who teaches, as a child needs her mother. Mother is the first guru and Sai is the greatest guru of all.

Anil Kumar: Good, Jyothi. It is a good thing because mother is the nearest and the dearest, and the first guru we come across in our life journey. Sai is the Divine Mother. Anyone else please? Please tell us your name and speak.

Audience: My name is Nirupama and Sai is here to show what each of us is capable of being from His own life example. He stands here as a single person; if you look at Him in the human form, here is one person who inspires millions and millions of people all over the world to live a life of service. The amount of seva that Swami has inspired as one single person can prove to us that each one of us is capable of doing that.

That is our highest goal in life, and He has come here to show us as an example. He says, “I am here,” “My life is My message,” and His message is to say that we are love ourselves. We are that and we are the same as He, and we are capable of living a life exactly the way He has, in seva or service and universal love. We are the same as He is. That is what Sai is to me.

Anil Kumar: Good, Nirupama. It is good that you said Swami is the inspirer, the indweller, the motivator, and the best example that we can look to because of the kind of service that He renders. I am also happy that you said what Bhagavan used to say of Himself, “My Life is My message,” His universal love. It is good that you gave these points. Thank you. Give her a big hand. (Applause) Next question, sir.

Moderator: I think everybody is waiting for your answer I guess.

Anil Kumar: You want the one sentence answer? The short answer or the long answer? I will give you a simple answer. What is that we sing in the course of arathi? Mata Pita Guru Daivam Mari Antayu Neeve.

Mata, is Mother, Pita is Father, Guru is the preceptor. Antayu Neeve, You are everything. That is one point.

Point number two: how do you know that Baba is God? Where is He? How am I to understand Him? Who is Sai?

Bhagavan said in one of His writings, “Where am I? Somebody says Swami is in Puttaparthi, Swami is in Whitefield, Swami may go to Kodaikanal. These are silly answers. Where am I? I am in you, above you, below you, around you. I and you are one.”

“I and you are one,” that is what Bhagavan said. It is only the names and forms that are different. That is one answer.

A second answer: In another instance He said, “Sai represents the essence of the four Vedas. Sathya, that very God has all the Vedas, Rig Veda, Yajur Veda, Sama Veda, so the essence of the Vedas is there in that name Sathya.” And Sai here meant S-A-I, S=Sai A=and plus I. “Sai and I” are one!

Thath twam asi. Thath twam asi is Sai. If you reverse it, it reads I-A-S. Not the Indian Administrative Service, but “I and Sai”, Aham Brahmasmi. So you and Sai; we are all at the core as he mentioned in his talk. Our very centre, the very being of our life, is what Sai is. Thank you very much.

Moderator: We will move on to the next question. This one is directly for Akhilan based on your presentation. When you are asking, “Who am I?” how do you differentiate between mind, character, and soul?

Panel Member 1: Very good question. How do we distinguish between the individual ‘I’ and ‘my’? All we have to do, brothers and sisters, is to tell ourselves, this is my pen, my body, my coat, my mind—the ‘my’ in everything remains constant. That ‘I’ is not attached to anything.

Panel Member 2: I will narrate a small story, as I am all about stories. There was a king and he went to a guru. He said, “Guru I want to realise.” So the guru said, “OK, who is it that wants to realise?” The king said, “I want to realise.” The guru asked, “Are you ready?” The king said, “I am ready.”

“So what can you do for me?” asked the guru.

The king said, “I can do anything you ask for.”

“Like what?”

“I can give up my kingdom.”

The guru interrupted and said, “Wait a minute, is the kingdom yours? It is not yours; it was something entrusted to you.”

So the king then said, “Then I will give up all the wealth that I have.”

The guru started smiling. “Is the wealth yours? It is the money that you have collected in the form of taxes from everyone. It belongs to people and it is not yours.”

So the king said, “I will give up my family. I will give up all the relations that I have.”

The guru said, “Your relations? You were born alone. At that time you did not know who your mother or your father were. Someone told you that she was your mother; someone told you that he was your father. What are you giving up there?”

He basically got fed up and he eventually asked the guru, “What should I do then? I don’t know.”

The guru replied, “Just do one thing. Give up feeling the ‘I’ who wants to give up. Give that up. Once you give that up, what is left is you.”

Anil Kumar: Wah! That’s great!

Panel Member 3: As you all know, I am a student. I just learnt something new right now. So that was why I was glad that the question was asked, because now I have a clear distinction between ‘I’ and ‘myself’. I guess that is all I have to say.

Panel Member 4: I don’t have anything to say.

Any more youngsters? Any youth? Anybody else here?

Two points to make clear. As Akhilan said, “My hand, my pants, and my shirt,” my, my, my... Bhagavan has told us, “This ‘my’, ‘my’, ‘my’ is maya, illusion. Illusion or delusion is nothing but ‘my’-ness.”

It is a sense of belonging, a sense of attachment, a sort of bondage, my-my-my maya. That is what has to be given up. The second thing He said was that if you take a cane and beat a buffalo (this is said in Sathya Sai Speaks Vol. 1), it goes on saying, “Hmm, hmm.” Once you take the nerves and make them into the beautiful strings of a violin, they go tum, tum, tum. So long as it is full of muscle and bone, it goes hmm, hmm, my, my, my. Once all that my, my, maya is gone, tum, tum, tum remains. When I say hum, something is wrong; but tum is absolutely correct. That is what Baba has said. (Applause)

Moderator: From the same person there is a question for Yamini.

You mentioned the worst case scenarios. Mandatory, spiritually-structured curriculum in early school could solve these problems. A carefully structured spiritual curriculum early in childhood can be the solution you mentioned in your talk.

Panel Member 4: I can’t claim to know how to solve the problems, but I just know that they are there, and I have experienced them. In response to that question I do think that a carefully structured, values-based program in every school would be a really, really, great start. (Applause)

Anil Kumar: Do you have anything to say Grace? No? Siddesh, do you have anything to add?

Panel Member 2: I really don’t have anything to add, but I just want to say that Educare should be able to help.

Anil Kumar: Educare, Educare, that is great.

Anybody from the audience?

Panel Member 4: I think we need to prepare them in the early stages and teach them the right values. I don’t know if we can eliminate the problems in the world, but definitely we can prepare them to face these problems and see them in a positive way; and this can affect other people. (Applause)

Anil Kumar: Good, good.

Audience: Swami says that when a plant is very small and you take proper care and make it stand properly, then it grows into a better tree, tall and straight. You must care for it when it is small, when it needs a fence so a buffalo won’t eat it. Once the plant grows into a tree, then we need not take care of it as much; but when it is a plant, we need to take great care of it to help it grow into a very good tree. (Applause)

Anil Kumar: Any more please?

Well, now I will add whatever I want to say on this question.

All of you have spoken so well and this topic has been treated comprehensively. But I would like to make one point clear. At one time Bal Vikas was the practice. Bal Vikas was one system that trained children in those days. Later, the education methods of the Sathya Sai Organisation took us to the next step, the EHV program, Sai education, or Education in Human Values.

In Bal Vikas we taught them stories, we mentioned the names of Gods, and all that. In the EHV program of Sai education, we go by the human values. We speak of Rama in Bal Vikas, while in Education in Human Values, we speak of Truth. We name Krishna in Bal Vikas, while in Education in Human Values, it is Love. We speak of Christ in Bal Vikas, and then we speak of sacrifice in Education in Human Values. So from Bal Vikas, we have evolved into EHV.

As Siddesh said, Educare is the current situation and as of now, no organisation has taken this up. I want all of you to take this Educare seriously and see that it is passed on to the children. Make it so that it will be very popular in contemporary society. Educare is good. When we have to face problems, education is not to run away from the problems. Education is not to make an escapist, no! We should be in a position to face problems, in a position to tackle problems.

We should face challenges. Life is a challenge, face it, and don’t run away. So education is a preparation towards facing the challenges of life, because each challenge is a test to get through, to emerge triumphantly, to emerge victoriously such that we grow spiritually. Am I clear? Thank you!

Moderator: We will move on to the next question. This is a practical one. What should Sai devotees do differently in the pursuit of the following: prestigious colleges, degrees, wealth and possessions, vegetarianism, service to people less well off, instead of seeking only friendship with rich people and power and politics?

Panel Member 1: Basically when we follow Swami’s teachings, He makes us rise above worldly attachment. Riches, education, and degrees are very important too, but we use them to gain on the spiritual path. That is all.

Anil Kumar: I would like you to repeat the question.

What should Sai devotees do differently in the pursuit of the following: prestigious colleges, degrees, wealth, material possessions, vegetarianism, service to people less well off, instead of seeking friendship with rich people and power and politics? A pretty broad question.

Panel Member 2: I will just quote Swami: “Head in the forest, hands in society,” and “Follow the heart.” That is a long list, and not all of these are necessarily imply being in the world. Some people have got to have all those things; but just make sure that you do not get involved in them and you know what is right and wrong. As far as discrimination power is concerned, if you have that in place, I think all the answers are within, and you should probably be able to tackle everything well.

Panel Member 1: We must learn to follow our conscience because it is our discrimination that allows us to decide what we should follow in the world of Swami, the permanent Self. That is all. Sai Ram.

Panel Member 3: I spoke about living in the world a little earlier. There are so many things in our society, such as materialism; but a lot of it is so glamourised and publicised now with all the technology that is available. So I guess it is just the realisation of putting a ceiling on desires, which I learned about at a Sai retreat a couple of years ago. We need to be able to differentiate between what we need and what we want. Although all these materialistic things are always going to exist in our world, we have to be able to control ourselves and be able to practice a ceiling on our desires.

Panel Member 4: I think Grace hit it on the head with ceiling on desires, and I think Swami has given us a beautiful program. (Professor Anil Kumar cheers by saying, “Ceiling on desires, a worthy daughter of a worthy father!”) So I was just going to say that I appreciate Swami’s program of ceiling on desires. He does not tell us to cut these things out (which is just not practical) when we have to live in this world and function in society; rather we should slowly begin to decrease that feeling of desire.

I think what I have found is that it is all about moderation. When you begin to live in moderation, you find a healthy balance. A lot of times we take on a possession, something like a cell phone, and we were perfectly fine and happy without it. But once we have it, we don’t remember how we lived without it.

I think the reverse is also true: you can cut things out of your life and then realise, “Oh, it wasn’t that important to me to begin with.” So moderation, ceiling on desires—slowly start taking steps with one thing, and then you will find that you are not dependent on what you think.

Anil Kumar: This is a really interesting question. Let’s not think that materialism and spirituality are contradictory. Let’s not entertain the feeling that materialism and spirituality are opposites. Never think they are two extremes. Certainly not. Materialism is a root, while spirituality is the fruit. So, both should go together.

Without the root, you cannot expect the fruit; and mere root without a fruit is firewood. Both should go together. So live in the world, but be beyond the world. Have everything, yet be beyond, because we know the ultimate. Let us not think that spirituality is given to those who don’t have anything. It is not the life of a beggar. No, no, no! Spirituality is a temperament. Spirituality is an attitude, spirituality is an internal relationship, and spirituality is a way of life. It has nothing to do with finances, education, or status.

Swami has said there is nothing wrong with money. It is the way that you use it that is important. There is nothing wrong with power, authority, or position; it is the way you exercise authority that makes the difference. So you can have everything, but be beyond the world. That is how it is.

I will give a simple example. One time in Kodaikanal, Swami was introducing a man who had given two hundred crores to our hospital. Another gentleman had given one hundred crores. He went on telling about crores and crores. I don’t know the number of zeroes to a crore. I don’t know that, nor do I need to know. So I was thinking that a crore in Telugu is called koti or kotlu. I said, “Swami, I have coats to wear, but not those koti!”

Then I felt bad about that man who had given two hundred crores, one hundred crores. “I have not given You anything. Here I am receiving everything from You and I have not given anything.” And I felt very embarrassed. Please believe me, Swami is witness to this.

You know what Swami said? “The man who gave two hundred crores is staying in the Carlton Hotel, the man who gave one hundred crore is staying in the Heritage Hotel. Where are you staying? You are right here staying in My room. Swami does not think of crores.” (Applause)

“They may have given crores and crores, but you have given Me your life. What more do you want? You have given yourself to Me.” So that is what God wants. That is what I can say. (Applause)

Moderator: Do we have time for one more question?

Even though Bhagavan is in us, why do we do wrong things from time to time? And how do we develop faith as a teenager or as an adult? And what is Self realisation?

Panel Member 1: Sai Ram! The very first part of the question is, “When Bhagavan is in us, why do we still do wrong things?” A very good question. Just recently I read the “Thought for the Day” from Prashanti Nilayam on the 7^th of March. You can check this “Thought for the Day”. It said: “When the flame is burning, fire produces little smoke. We tend to have little wrong things coming out of that little flame, but we must see to it that the flame is growing and the wrong things diminish over time.”

Panel Member 2: You have gone wrong probably because you have not discriminated correctly. There are two ways. Either you discriminate and think you are the doer of everything, so you discriminate, “This is right, this is wrong,” screening all your thoughts and deeds. Or you follow with faith, “Whatever happens to me or through me is His will.” Then whatever happens, be it good or bad, you are ready to accept it. So I would say you probably have not discriminated or tried the second method. Or you need to follow the principles in terms of screening your thoughts and deeds to be able not do wrong. So probably the ego had done wrong, not Swami.

Panel Member 3: I have become really certain that Swami is fully aware of my actions; so many times, I have actually thought that I would be a different devotee. I haven’t had the opportunity to travel to India and see Swami in person. So I always wondered if seeing Him in physical form is like a sort of validation. He really is all-knowing and knows all of my actions, but I guess that is all.

Panel Member 4: I think I would say to the first question that if we are doing what we perceive to be wrong and we are actually feeling some guilt or remorse while considering a wrong action, it is just probably a momentary lapse. We have forgotten that Swami is within us and watching us, and I think Swami is great and forgiving. We need to develop ways to correct that, learn from it, and move on.

In terms of developing faith (which I think was the second question), I would say what I discovered for myself is that putting myself into difficult situations tends to be helpful, like getting outside of your comfort zone, going to different places, trying different things, getting uncomfortable sometimes, and watching Swami work. It’s not magic, but it’s a beautiful thing to see, and I can tell when I get there.

Anil Kumar: Anybody, youngsters, please come on! This is what I have been dreaming about for all these years!

Audience: Sai Ram everyone! To answer the first question, this is what flashed through my mind. The point is we do wrong sometimes—basically we forget that the people whom we hurt are also our near and dear ones. Were it your husband, were it your wife or your mom, would you do this?

When we get an answer to this, it is basically that we have forgotten that the ones whom we are actually hurting are also our near and dear ones. Just pause for a moment and ask yourselves, “Were it my mom, would I have done this?” Then you would never do that wrong again.

Anil Kumar: Did you follow what she said? Please explain.

Audience: I just have one point to share. It is okay to make mistakes as long as you recognise that you have made them. Don’t hold on to them. At least this is what I have learnt. Recognise the fact that it happened and move on. Keep moving forward. How we go about living our lives is what is more important.

The fact is that we are all here as Swami’s devotees. The fact is that nothing in our life goes unmonitored, without His will. If we are doing something wrong, obviously it is just one step; and the fact that we recognise we are doing something wrong takes us one step closer to that goal of Self realisation, towards that goal of being crystal-like—being pure as a crystal. That is what I would like to say.

To say that in a crisp way: it happened because of His will. Moving forward, I am not going to do it again, and just keep moving forward; as opposed to holding on to a mistake and being stuck in it, feeling miserable and guilty. And yes, you recognise it. The smart thing is to say that I am not going to do it again. Be smart about it, and say, “Thank you, Swami, for making me realise this.” Thank you. Thank you for this journey.

Anil Kumar: Good. I am sorry I did not get what the other lady said, so would you please come here and explain once again? None of us could follow it—not only me, who is fresh from India; but even the Americans could not follow it!

Audience: I am sorry for the language; maybe I was in a hurry. What I want to say is when we do a wrong, why does it happen? It is basically because we have forgotten the fact that those people whom we are actually hurting by doing that particular wrong are also our near and dear ones. You can consider somebody as equal to your mom, dad, husband, or wife. You should take them close to your heart. I mean, Swami tells us to Love all, serve all.

Well, what does that mean? You should treat everybody just as you treat your mom and dad. If you start doing that, you would never do any wrong in your life. That is what I meant.

Anil Kumar: Good, well done. Well, all three questions have been put into one reply, three-in-one—a packaged question, quite in tune with the times that we live in. The first part was well handled by Siddesh and Akhilan. Discrimination! Bhagavan says before we act upon anything, we should question ourselves, “Is it acceptable to Swami or not? Does He endorse it or not? Does He acknowledge it or not?” This is one way of exercising discrimination.

And two, when Swami is there, how is it we act in different ways? For this there is a simple answer: our attraction to sensual pleasure and the past karmic effects along with the company we are in and dietary habits, these all affect our behaviour and our actions. Dietary habits, the company we keep, and our past lives haunt us and chase us. We sometimes commit mistakes, yet Bhagavan is all-merciful! No one can say that I have not committed any mistake so far—beware of such fellows, for they must have committed Himalayan mistakes! To err is human and to forgive is Divine.

So what does Baba say?

When I say, “Swami, I have done a mistake; please pardon me.”

He will say, “Past is past, forget about it. Why do you bring it up again?”

I would also add one more point. Committing a guilty act and having a guilty conscience are two different things. To go on feeling guilty about it is much worse than the guilt itself. Guilt is an act finished there and then, whereas a guilty conscience will follow you. It will interfere with your relationships, with your work, in sports, everywhere. So let us not carry a guilty conscience about that act. Forget about it, stop it, and let us not repeat it. That is what Bhagavan said.

About faith: how do you develop faith? You hire a taxi and sit there; the driver goes at a very high speed but you are not bothered because you have full faith in the taxi driver. Or you go to a saloon and allow the barber to cut your hair as he wants to; we sit there forgetting the fact that he may put the knife on our head or neck itself. We have faith in the barber. And we send out our clothes to the washer-man in full faith that he will bring them back.

So we have faith in everybody, yet it is so unfortunate that we don’t have faith in God. So how do we get faith? We have to understand how we lost it. Having been born with faith, how did we lose it? That is the question I would ask. That is why Swami said, Viswasame Nee Swasa. Viswasa, faith, is swasa, breath.

Yes, instead of pointing out the mistakes of others, let us point out our own mistakes. Judge not others by their mistakes; judge others by their merits. “Judge not lest thou shalt be judged,” says the Holy Bible. That is what Bhagavan has said.

Anil Kumar sings a bhajan, “Bhajamana Narayana Narayana”.

Moderator: I hope you all enjoyed the program this afternoon. Let us give one more round of applause to all the panel members, Professor Anil Kumar, and everybody. (Applause)

Jai Bolo Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Babaji ki Jai!